Holly ([info]ercasse_ainince) wrote,
@ 2007-02-04 17:10:00
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Current mood:analytical
Entry tags:beast complex, beauty and the beast, cyrano de bergerac, fictitious men, jane eyre, literature, phantom of the opera

Nobody Likes a Handsome Prince
As promised, here is the companion essay to my beast-complex essays. I have written quite a few words in praise of literary beasts, such as the beast from "Beauty and the Beast," Mr. Rochester from Jane Eyre, Cyrano de Bergerac, and the Phantom of the Opera. (See http://ercasse-ainince.livejournal.com/21800.html and http://ercasse-ainince.livejournal.com/34630.html.) Now I will comment on the beast's foil, his nemesis, the handsome prince.

Most beasts in general and each of the beasts I have mentioned in particular have their handsome-prince foils -- Mr. Rochester versus St. John Rivers, Cyrano versus Christian, the Phantom versus Raoul, and, of course, the beast versus the prince. At first, the handsome prince looks like a very attractive romantic prospect. He is young, handsome, dashing, admired and pursued by other women. He is the textbook-perfect model of romantically attractive manhood, the kind of man a Beauty, a Roxanne, a Christine is supposed to want. He is the happy ending to the fairy tale.

Or is he?

Note the "supposed to." Note the attitude of "this should be," the foregone conclusion that any woman, particularly an attractive one such as a fairy-tale princess, must want the prince, must even be destined for him. Doesn't she get a choice? Few of us know or have ever been told that the Grimm Brothers' Cinderella runs from the prince all three nights of the ball and that he gets her shoe only by spreading pitch on the stairs in an attempt to stop her flight. It takes a royal decree to get those two married. Old-school (read "non Disney") fairy tales are full of girls who aren't out looking for love but who end up catching a prince's eye anyway. Christine is enjoying her first night as opera prima donna, due to the tutelage of her angel of music, when Raoul decides to notice her, remember their childhood romance, steal into her dressing room, and take her to dinner. She refuses, thinking of her angel's displeasure, but Raoul won't hearken to her objections. St. John Rivers, too, though Jane is in love with Rochester, doesn't ask but rather demands Jane's hand in marriage, saying, "A missionary's wife you must -- shall be. You shall be mine: I claim you." When she persists in her refusal, knowing that she cannot be the wife he will require her to be, he tells her, "It is not me you deny, but God." Jane sees even St. John's beauty as a form of his tyranny, saying that to be what he wants of her is "as impossible as to mould [her] irregular features to his correct and classic pattern."

What the prince and often the audience fail to realize is that the prince's love for the maiden isn't always requited. His admiration doesn't obligate her to him. Her heart is hers to give, even if everyone else thinks she should give it to him, even if her family and friends are willing to sell her for money and a title. When the forces of parents and society and religion join to tell a woman that she must like a certain man, even if he is a prince, how can she help but feel manipulated and trapped? Is it any wonder if she succumbs to the allure of the forbidden and gets a crush on the dirty, sweaty blacksmith?

When we step back from the prince and the brilliance of his title, money, and popularity, what is so confounded attractive about him? He is a pretty boy. I know that pretty boys and metrosexuals are plastered all over present-day magazine covers and touted as the pinnacle of fashionable, sexually attractive manhood (again with society's telling women what to like). I know that I should allow for varying tastes among women. But can a pretty boy really do it for so many? So he's young, cute, (often) blond, bright eyed, smooth skinned. He sounds more like competition than a date to me. When I think of masculinity, I don't think of a pretty-boy handsome prince. I'll bet that blacksmith I mentioned earlier could easily take down our prince here and not even break a sweat (beyond that which he's worked up while pounding metal and building up those biceps). Even blind and maimed, Rochester could snap St. John's neck like a twig. The waifish Christine has to save Raoul twice from the Phantom's wrath. And Roxanne actually charges Cyrano with protecting Christian first from their allies among the cadets and then from their enemies in the war.

Yet despite the prince's general uselessness and utter lack of manliness, he is his own biggest fan. We can hardly wonder at his vanity, since everyone has always told him how cute, desirable, and extraordinary he is. He is Queen Mommy's darling, King Daddy's chip off the ol' block. Women fall all over him, even if he spends more time primping at his mirror than they. Sure, he can't arm wrestle the blacksmith, but he can order the palace guards to do it for him and then take all the credit. The prince is good at taking the credit for other people's work; after all, it's his due as royalty or as a pretty-boy heartthrob or as whatever characteristic he chooses for his entitlement complex. The rather dim-witted Christian sees no problem in claiming Cyrano's eloquence as his own in wooing Roxanne. St. John Rivers declares that God has destined Jane to be his bride.

The prince's vanity and sense of entitlement make it very difficult to believe that he truly loves. What, after all, does he see in his desired woman but a pretty face for the family portrait, another check mark on his list of accomplishments? As Disney's Gaston says, "[She's] the most beautiful girl in town. That makes her the best. And don't I deserve the best?" Prince Humperdinck, too, declares, "I want someone who is so beautiful that when you see her you say, 'Wow, that Humperdinck must be some kind of fella to have a wife like that.'" As to the prince types I have named in particular, Raoul doesn't even notice Christine until she is made prima donna by the Phantom and displayed on stage, whereupon he says, "What a change! You're really not a bit the gawkish girl that once you were." When Christian tries to express his love to Roxanne without Cyrano's help, his words are, "Your neck! I'd like to kiss it." True, St. John wants plain Jane, but he wants her for his great missions work. As he says, "It is not the insignificant private individual -- the mere man, with the man's selfish sense -- I wish to mate: it is the missionary," and "You are formed for labour, not for love." In his way, St. John sees Jane as a missionary's trophy wife.

If this vain, self-centered prince marries his lady, will he love her selflessly? Will he make her happy? Of course he chases the fleeing maiden, because she challenges his view of himself as irresistible. But once he catches her, will he take her for granted as he would any toy of which he tires once he comes to possess it? Unfortunately for this question, the stories usually end with the prince's marriage, and we don't get to see his married life. But beauty/beast/prince stories in which the beauty chooses the prince don't give particularly glowing impressions of the couple's wedded life. Christine tearfully gives back the Phantom's ring and sails off with Raoul, and then we know nothing of her life except that she leaves Raoul a widower. Roxanne marries Christian minutes before he is sent to war, visits his camp just in time to hold him as he dies, lives in mourning at a convent for years, then at last learns that it was Cyrano who wrote the letters that won her heart, just in time to watch Cyrano die. She laments, "I've loved only one man, and I've lost him twice."

"But Holly," I hear you my readers say, "You titled this essay 'Nobody Likes a Handsome Prince,' and so far you've expressed only your own opinions." Well, now I will demonstrate that other writers are joining my cause and sharing my antiprince, probeast sentiments. The primary works I will discuss in this arena are Into the Woods, Shrek and Shrek 2, The 10th Kingdom, and a ballet version of "Beauty and the Beast" that I haven't seen but of which I've been told.

The first time I heard of a work that overtly agrees that a beauty should love the beast was when an aunt told me about a ballet version of "Beauty and the Beast" in which the dancer playing the beast dances around in a hideous mask. At the end, instead of his shedding the mask to become a prince, the Beauty character dons a mask and becomes a beast herself. I was so thrilled. Very soon afterward, I saw Shrek and was again glad to see Princess Fiona transform into an ogre rather than Shrek transform into a handsome-prince type. Even better than the sympathetic portrayal of the ogre Shrek are the characterizations of Lord Farquaad in the first film and of Prince Charming in the second film. Then I saw a college performance of Into the Woods, and I couldn't have been more pleased with the portrayals of the annoying handsome princes. And even The 10th Kingdom's Prince Wendell, though he isn't a romantic interest, is a wonderfully vain, spoiled, self-centered, useless prince.

The Shrek films do an excellent job of satirizing the "this is the way things should be" attitude of the prince type. (Sadly, these films take up satirical arms also against all fairy tales, which the films seem to recognize only as the Disney versions.) Lord Farquaad is a control freak who runs his not yet kingdom of Duloc as the most despotic of micromanagers and expects his princess to be part of his vision. As he says, "I will have order! I will have perfection!" Fiona, too, as if she has Stockholm syndrome from her long imprisonment, is at first a slave to fairy-tale convention. She balks at Shrek and his unorthodox rescue, saying, "It's destiny. You must know how it goes" and then "This is all wrong. You're not supposed to be an ogre." Later, however, she seems to realize the ridiculousness of marrying someone she doesn't know or like simply because it's expected of her. Shrek 2 does an even better job with Prince Charming, who also declares destiny has chosen him for Fiona. When Fiona's father the king points out that one can't force people to fall in love, the Fairy Godmother (Prince Charming's mother) says, "I do it all the time." The Shrek films are all about debunking convention and defying expectations, especially about love.

These new takes on handsome princes also tend to agree with me on the prince's lack of manliness. Shrek's Lord Farquaad is laughably short and must endure the resulting jokes and all their connotations, including jokes about his huge castle's being in order to "compensate." Prince Charming from Shrek 2 is incredibly effeminate and immature, shown sporting a hair net and sparkly lip gloss. He whines petulantly and must rely on his mother to solve all his problems, even to do his hair for the ball. The two princes from Into the Woods have their ridiculous phobias, one of blood, the other of dwarfs. Prince Wendell from The 10th Kingdom is easily duped by the evil queen and turned into a dog, leaving others to rescue him, save his kingdom, and restore him to the throne and to his human form.

As for vanity and a sense of entitlement, these princes have them in spades. Lord Farquaad declares he and his kingdom are perfect and will hear no word to the contrary. He believes himself fully entitled to wed Princess Fiona, though he doesn't bother to rescue her himself. In Prince Charming's opening monologue to Shrek 2, he declares himself "the bravest and most handsome in all the land" as he tosses his hair for the camera. He, too, thinks himself entitled to Fiona without slaying the dragon or rescuing her. The princes from Into the Woods strut like peacocks for every female they see. Prince Wendell, even as a dog, thinks himself entitled to unquestioning obedience from the dimensional travelers who are in no way his subjects. He is supposed to have performed "prearranged acts of bravery" as a coronation requirement.

Each of the amorous princes has selfish motives for wanting his lady. Both Lord Farquaad and Prince Charming want Princess Fiona in order to become king. Farquaad is willing to use his marriage to be king while locking Fiona turned ogre back into her tower prison. The princes from Into the Woods want Cinderella and Rapunzel as long as these ladies are unattainable. Once they marry their ladies, they begin to pine for other beauties in need of rescue. As Cinderella's prince says, "I was raised to be charming, not sincere." And I don't think it's coincidence that the actor who plays this prince traditionally plays the wolf, with his double-entendred lines, as well. It seems these new princes, just as I've always said of the old ones, are not capable of the selfless love that a beast has for his Beauty.

So it looks like popular culture is starting to agree with me that a handsome prince is no real man, no true lover. And at least to some extent, beasts are gaining in popularity. I'm glad we as a culture are starting to come to our senses, but I'm afraid beasts may never be appreciated as they deserve. In fact, I'm sure they won't. That, in the end, is what makes them beasts, what makes them so very attractive to those of us who understand.



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[info]tiepilot
2007-02-05 02:28 am UTC (link)
The man translation http://tiepilot.livejournal.com/162884.html

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[info]shadmere
2007-02-05 05:24 pm UTC (link)
I'm about to run off to class right now, so I don't have much time. I'll try to reply to this in depth later, but since it may be Thursday or later before I've my computer back up, it's possible that I will forget.

It seems that you may be confusing the fact that the public is tired of handsome princes with the notion that handsome princes are now considered poor examples of men. The examples you use near the end of your essay are parodic--comedic examples of "What if the prince was actually no more than a pathetic, annoying pretty-boy?" The more literary examples you use, I believe, may be seen much more as a realization that suavity and good-looks are not indicative of a "real man, a true lover."

While I'm reasonable sure that you do not believe this (a certainty I have only because of the ridiculousness of the claim), your essays on this subject seem to imply that the possession of good-looks and nobility actually negate the possibility of a man being real and true. The beast is a good man, in the stories, as is the handsome prince a terrible one, because this reversal serves to better illustrate the point. A man is a real man, a good and true lover, by virtue of his being a real man. A beast is a good man because he is a good man, as is a prince a good man because he is a good man. Their virtues lie in their being, not their prettiness nor the lack of it.

Yes, if a pretty prince is weak, loves only himself, cares nothing for the wishes of his "love," and is generally useless, then he is a mean prospect compared to a loving, strong, true, selfless beast. The adjectives are the decisive factors, however.

Of course, when the pretty, charming, and influential prince is also strong, loving, and selfless, he apparently makes for a terrifyingly boring character. One about which only boys could enjoy reading! (Because they aspire to be him.)

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[info]ercasse_ainince
2007-02-05 07:22 pm UTC (link)
OH MY GOODNESS. We have had this argument before. Here we go again.

You say "It seems that you may be confusing the fact that the public is tired of handsome princes with the notion that handsome princes are now considered poor examples of men." If it is only the public's tiring of handsome princes, why aren't we equally derisive of beautiful princesses? Princesses still enjoy great approbation, even -- dare I say especially -- in the modern-day examples I used at the end of my essay, those you call "parodic" and "comedic." Princess Fiona is beautiful and rich and royal and graceful; she is also clever and independent and capable, even able to protect Shrek from ambushes of multiple attackers, once in each film. She, unlike the princes, is able to find the beauty within the man she loves and to love him truly. Cinderella from Into the Woods is a good, admirable girl who leaves her royal palace to see to her people's need when her prince cannot go (because he's out dallying). She is genuinely hurt to learn of his unfaithfulness, and she has the self-respect to leave him and be on her own again. The princesses in The 10th Kingdom are almost worshipped, certainly revered. Snow White, Cinderella, and the Lady Rapunzel, as Wolf says, are among the great women who changed history. There is no such reverence for princes. The princes don't return from the dead to help the good and destroy evil, as Snow White does.

You call my second set of cited works "parodic" and "comedic," but I would argue that Into the Woods is much more serious than that. It explores dark themes, especially in the second act, where the giant threatens the land, where the baker's wife commits adultery with Cinderella's prince and is wracked by guilt, where the baker's wife and Jack's mother die and leave their loved ones to mourn, where Jack and Red Riding Hood must learn the hard truth that everyone is right in his own eyes and that even wolves and giants have people who love them. And I disagree entirely that the Shrek films and The 10th Kingdom have as their central thesis "What if the prince was actually no more than a pathetic, annoying pretty boy?" They are much. much broader, and they take on all kinds of fairy-tale convention.

You say, "The more literary examples you use, I believe, may be seen much more as a realization that suavity and good-looks are not indicative of a 'real man, a true lover.'" That is precisely my point. Sadly, most audiences, if not most writers, don't seem to get that. They see only the pretty and the ugly. For that very reason, I write these essays.

You say, "A man is a real man, a good and true lover, by virtue of his being a real man. A beast is a good man because he is a good man, as is a prince a good man because he is a good man. Their virtues lie in their being, not their prettiness nor the lack of it." Again, of course. You'll note that all my examples are literary/pop culture. Nowhere do I cite my personal experience to prove that pretty men are all bad and ugly men all good. I am talking about archetypes, literary types. What relation those types have to actual life I leave to you and my readers to decide each for his own self. In the world of literature, I go for beasts and hate handsome princes, and more and more writers are siding with me. That is the point of my essays. Think of the perposterousness of trying to apply one of the beast traits I like -- superhuman strength -- the real-world men. Of course I won't find it. That doesn't make it any less desirable in literature or film or whatever.

And consider your final paragraph with a gendere reversal. "Of course, when the pretty, charming, and influential princess is also strong, loving, and selfless, she apparently makes for a terrifyingly boring character. One about which only girls could enjoy reading! (Because they aspire to be her.)" That's not true. The princesses in the current works I cited are all these things, and the works enjoy mass popularity.

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[info]shadmere
2007-02-06 07:25 pm UTC (link)
You can tell that we are not as tired as beautiful princesses precisely because we continue to portray them in a good light. In fact, we portray them in a better light than most traditional stories do. No longer are princesses shy things which, while embodying compassion and goodness, embody them quietly. In older tales, the princess may be outgoing or adventurous, but that is often the very reason she is placed into a position of distress! And it's also common that the princess herself have nothing to do with either her predicament or her rescue. She would be carried off against her will, only to be rescued by a prince. Upon occasion, the princess would assist the prince in some fashion, but often she would have little to nothing to do with any part of the story whatsoever. She was a living Macguffin.

More modern tales showcase that a princess's lack of meekness and humility, while it may get her into trouble, also have much to do with getting her out of trouble. Princess Fiona is a good example. She has little to do with the helpless princess stuck in a tower; as you said, she is the one who saves her "rescuers" upon occasion. You say that this is obvious that we are not tired of traditional princesses, but it is in fact evidence that we are. We want our princesses to be stronger than the men who expect to rescue them!

I never said that Shrek and The 10th Kingdom use the prince joke as their central theme. I was speaking specifically of their portrayal of the prince character, not of their entire premise.

You say that most audiences do not "get" your point. But do most readers believe that Jane should have stayed with St. John? Do most audiences believe the Phantom to be nothing but evil, worthy only of destruction?

I know you do not think that prettiness precludes goodness. My point is that you "go for beasts and hate handsome princes" in literature because, in the instances you cite, the beasts are obviously the better men. You hate the prince characters because they are shallow and weak.

The final paragraph of my first response was intended less as my own opinion, and more of a rephrasing of the belief which others (yourself and Brooke) have tried to impress upon me. As for boring, would you consider the Beast to be as exciting if, throughout the plot, he was as handsome and well-loved as any prince? I believe you wouldn't, for you've stated before that he becomes less interesting even when he regains his personal beauty at the end of the Disney movie. You like him less because he is less ugly. You have blatantly assumed that this transformation mandates that his love for Belle will be less. That is what I am arguing against.

In your initial post, you say that "I'm afraid beasts may never be appreciated as they deserve. In fact, I'm sure they won't. That, in the end, is what makes them beasts, what makes them so very attractive to those of us who understand." This statement seems to resonate some with your negative inclination towards anything "popular." I wonder, if beasts were as appreciated as they should be, would you be nearly as attracted to them?

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[info]ercasse_ainince
2007-02-07 02:18 am UTC (link)
This is getting silly. Do you realize your logic is circular? You say the reason modern takes on fairy tales make fun of handsome princes is that the public is tired of handsome princes. Then you say the fact that modern takes of fairy tales portray princesses well shows that the public isn't tired of princesses. Then you say that we are tired of faity-tale traditional princesses and therefore must remake them as stronger, more capable characters. Why doesn't it work the other way? If we are as tired of princesses as of princes, why don't we portray Snow White and Cinderella as helpless, mincing, weak-willed ninnies? Or if we're going to remake princesses as stonger characters, why don't we make handsome princes into noble, selfless lovers?

Understand my point is not that traditional-fairy-tale princes are uniformly entirely bad nor that traditional-fairy-tale princesses are always the perfect role model for today's woman. My point is the very thing I've pointed out -- that today's audiences don't like handsome princes; hence, we make fun of them. The side point I made in my first reply to your comment is that today's audiences still like princesses; hence, we portray them nicely.

I will also caution you from generalizing about fairy tales to the woman who wrote her thesis on the Grimm Brothers' fairy tales. I know my fairy tales better than you. I can point out numerous fairy tales in which the maiden rescues the hero, at least as many as have a hero rescuing a maiden. "Beauty and the Beast" is the best known example of an entire category of fairy tales known to scholars as "search for the lost husband." Of course, the female is the one who rescues/searches for the male lover. And even when thinking only of the fairy tales popular today, the prince is usually the stock character, one who rarely has a name. The stories are named for the females -- Snow White, Cinderella, Rapunzel. The stories that have stock princesses without names are less popular -- "The Brave Little Tailor," "The Twin Brothers," "The White Snake."

What I understand from the third paragraph of your latest response seems circular, as well. Of course we are talking about the portrayal of the prince. That is the central theme of my essay. You want to deny that the disparate treatment of princes and princesses in modern takes on fairy tales shows popular opinion of the characters. You want to tell me that the works that make princes wimpy are just "comedic" and "parodic" and are doing it only because it makes for good humor. If that were true, it would work the other way, too; it would make for good humor to parody the princess. In your first reply, you seem to want to make the prince's treatment in modern works a special-case scenario (so that it makes no difference if princesses are treated the same way). In your reply to my reply to you, you deny it's a special case, saying, "I was speaking specifically of their portrayal of the prince character." Again, your logic is circular

And yes, most audiences do not get my point. St. John is unique among handsome-prince types, as I've admitted in my essay. He doesn't even pretend to love Jane, so the audience isn't duped into believing he loves her (and he isn't duped himself, as I'm convinced many handsome princes are about their "love" for their ladies). And while audiences probably feel for the Phantom, they certainly don't tend to think Christine should stay with him, as I have thought since I was fourteen years old. Heck, audiences sympathize with the beast, but they can't have Beauty marry him until they turn him into a prince.

You say, "I know you do not think that prettiness precludes goodness. My point is that you 'go for beasts and hate handsome princes' in literature because, in the instances you cite, the beasts are obviously the better men. You hate the prince characters because they are shallow and weak." Yes. I agree. That is my point.

I will post the rest in another reply, since I went over the word limit.

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[info]shadmere
2007-02-07 03:14 am UTC (link)
why don't we portray Snow White and Cinderella as helpless, mincing, weak-willed ninnies
Because that's what we're tired of.

why don't we make handsome princes into noble, selfless lovers?
Because that is also what we are tired of. That is the "norm." The princess is weak and the prince is strong, noble, and powerful. That's what we expect out of fairy tales.

The side point I made in my first reply to your comment is that today's audiences still like princesses; hence, we portray them nicely.
That's . . . exactly what I said. We still like princesses, we're tired of princes. However, we don't like weak princesses, so we make them strong. And while we no longer like princes, they make for excellent joke-fodder.

I will also caution you from generalizing about fairy tales to the woman who wrote her thesis on the Grimm Brothers' fairy tales. I know my fairy tales better than you.
My generalizations are intended only to be indicative of the fairy tales that has been ingrained into the general public. There's no doubt that you know more fairy tales than nearly anyone I know, but this is not a conversation about all fairy tales.

Hrm, this does raise a very interesting point, though. I wonder . . . if we were to take a survey, would most people respond that the handsome princes were usually the strong, powerful characters? Or would more say that the princesses were the characters in power? Because I will agree with you that most popular fairy tales have a strong princess character, and yet I think it likely that the popular image of the "fairy tale princess" is that of a weak one.

If that were true, it would work the other way, too; it would make for good humor to parody the princess.
Not true. There are dozens if not hundreds of commercials nowadays that portray men as stupid, low-brow brutes who are only just barely kept alive by their intelligent, patient wives. There are several sit-coms that I can think of right now where the husband character is rude, ugly, smelly, and of such incredibly low intelligence that it's a wonder they manage to feed their selves. However, they almost always have an attractive, smart, witty wife. Perhaps in the past it was acceptable to have the wife be the silly, weak, clumsy character, but that is no longer the case.

Again, your logic is circular
I don't understand why you're saying this, here. I said that the princes in Shrek and such were simply jokes based on stereotypical "perfect princes." You replied that those jokes were not the central concept in those films, and I said that I never meant to imply that the princes were the central joke in the films.

but they can't have Beauty marry him until they turn him into a prince.
I think most would have Beauty marry him anyway, if by some chance the magic did not "free" him from his beast-form. But I could be wrong.

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Silliness continues
[info]ercasse_ainince
2007-02-07 10:22 pm UTC (link)
I see that cherry picking will get us nowhere. I will try to avoid the temptation and to stick to the ideas, not to the words.

Your original problem with my essay, as I understand it, is that you say I claim today's audiences see princes as poor examples of men when, in truth, it is only that today's audiences are tired of handsome princes. You see the derisive way handsome princes are portrayed in the more current works I cited as evidence only that a selfish, vain, wimpy prince is a funny deviation from the norm, not that audiences think the old-school princes are actually selfish, vain, and/or wimpy.

I still disagree. It would be too overwhelming a coincidence that the very things that annoy me about old-school or more literary handsome princes are the very traits ascribed to them in the more current works. Today's writers are not simply changing the prince for humor; they are pointing out faults that he has had all along and that audiences in the past didn't notice or at least didn't see as important. The old-school prince is not, as you just argued, selfless. He is what I said in this essay that he is -- self-centered, egotistical, and the poster boy for the hegemony. Where these traits were less prominent in the older works, they are highlighted and ridiculed in more current works.

That you and I disagree over dislike versus tired of may be just a semantic thing. I say people dislike handsome princes; you say people are tired of handsome princes. I think in the end, it's the same thing. I don't, however, think people are bored with the good male character and make him bad just for a change. Rather, I think people are tired of having to pretend the prince has no faults, tired of having to pretend to like him. We are freeing ourselves to dislike him.

I also don't quite understand your arguments for why, if we are displeased with the old-school princesses as much as we are with old-school princes, we don't make fun of princesses as much as we do princes. The best I can understand from your replies is that it is more popular today to have a bumbling male character with a capable female character to save him. I don't think that can account for the disparity in prince/princess treatment in current works. I think, rather, that what audiences dislike about old-school princesses is not as laughable or annoying as what audiences dislike about old-school princes. The prince's annoying traits include, to varying degrees, vanity, self-centeredness, immaturity, lack of capability, and a sense of entitlement. These traits are much more annoying and laughable than those I see in old-school princesses -- shyness, submissiveness, fear, lack of faith in her own capability. These princess "faults" are much more sympathetic. They don't make us dislike her; they make us want to help her.

As to the beast's having to change to a prince for his marriage to be acceptable, that is the convention. I'm saying that the audience, even an open-minded, prince-disliking audience of today, sees Beauty's love for the beast as acceptable only because he becomes a prince.

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[info]ercasse_ainince
2007-02-07 02:19 am UTC (link)
Here's the rest of the reply.

You say, "As for boring, would you consider the Beast to be as exciting if, throughout the plot, he was as handsome and well-loved as any prince? I believe you wouldn't." You're right. I wouldn't. If he were handsome and well loved, there is no story. He wouldn't be under an enchantment and need rescuing. He wouldn't ask Beauty to stay with him. He wouldn't even meet Beauty. Even if he did and even if they fell in love, the story is still boring, as boring as when any handsome prince meets a pretty girl and falls in love. You must again remember that I'm talking in terms of literature. Literary romance without obstacle is boring. And even taking just the beast character himself, we see he is incredibly boring if he isn't a beast. A beast who talks and reasons like a man, who is master of an enchanted castle, is exciting. He's much more mysterious and intruiging than a handsome prince, who is, after all, only a man whose only "extraordinary" qualities are his being cute (overrated) and royal (a convention of society).

You say, "You have blatantly assumed that this transformation mandates that his love for Belle will be less." You realize that most of the prince types I have mentioned are not the same character as the beast, not someone into whom the beast type transforms. The prince as a separate character doesn't love Beauty as much as the separate beast character, as I have given ample evidence to show. As for The Beast in the fairy tale "Beauty and the Beast," I am disappointed at his transformation for many reasons. He loses his mythical quality and superhuman strength and overwhelming masculinity. He and Beauty are now no longer alone in their private realm of love; they must suffer the encroachment of society. And even if he still remembers the love he developed for Beauty when he was a beast, as a prince he will face more distractions and temptation than he would as a beast. You will say that if he loves her, he can resist. I still say that as a beast, these distractions and temptations wouldn't be an issue.

You say at the end, "I wonder, if beasts were as appreciated as they should be, would you be nearly as attracted to them?" No, I wouldn't. I openly admit my self-proclaimed irrational prejudice against all things popular. But that prejudice doesn't negate all the evidence I've given to support my opinion. And you must remember that a beast's being unappreciated is part of what makes him a beast. It's no fun to tell a handsome prince that he's handsome, since he's heard it a million times. It's very fun to tell the beast that he's hot, because he's never heard it before.

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[info]shadmere
2007-02-07 03:19 am UTC (link)
I still say that as a beast, these distractions and temptations wouldn't be an issue.
And I say that if it cannot be an issue, then one cannot even know the depth of the love. If a thing cannot be tested, how then can one know its strength? How can a love be trusted, if the only thing that is for certain is that "there is no other choice?"

In general, though, I can't find much to argue with in that last reply of yours. Well done.

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[info]krysturtle
2007-02-06 03:58 am UTC (link)
Hi there. You don't know me but might know of me. I'm a friend of [info]tiepilot's. I followed his link to this entry and I just wanted to say that thoroughly enjoyed this essay. I love the way your mind works. For a long time I thought I was the only one who prefered the beast to the prince. It's nice to know that I'm not alone. When I get a little more free time I want to go back and read your "beast" essay.

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Hello
[info]ercasse_ainince
2007-02-07 01:14 am UTC (link)
Nice to meet you. Thanks for your feedback on my essay. If you liked it, you're sure to like my beast-complex essays to which I linked at the beginning of this entry. It's great to come across another fan of beasts. Don't worry; you aren't alone. But just as audiences don't understand the beast, people usually don't understand those of us who admire him. That's all right, though. We get him all to ourselves.

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Princes aren't the point...
[info]brukwurm
2007-02-07 04:48 am UTC (link)
I propose that in fairy tales, boys are not the point. Boys are never the point, ewww. I think that fairy tales are about the clothes. Think about the titles. Many of the titles give us information about the girl's particular style--what she looks like, how she dresses, what she enjoys. The stories either follow the fashion to its culmination or they show how the princess boldly plugs on after losing her gimmick. You say no one likes a prince; well, how could they? The prince is only an accessory--and a dull one at that. He lacks the panache of dancing slippers or hair ties. I mean honestly, princes are so poorly drawn that desire for him is eclipsed by desire for turnips.

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Re: Princes aren't the point...
[info]shadmere
2007-02-07 05:14 am UTC (link)
Then they should be drawn better!

. . .

The part about the turnips is awesome.

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